OW Technique for 4-5" Size - Suggestions?

[Pellucid Wombat]

So on a visit to SLC last week I tried out the Momentum climbing gym and stumbled across a nice crack that starts from wide hands and flares to a full offwidth as it overhangs. The OW section reminds me a lot of the beginning 1/3 of Generator Crack.

I worked out 2 ways to climb this. Both left me nauseous and both drew a bit of sweat & blood, but both seemed to work. The second one seemed to work better but by then I knew better what I was getting into on round 2, so it might not really be better.

So after all this jibber-jabber, I'm wondering if the OW gurus can tell me if technique 1 or 2 are the better way to explore this width of OW, or if I am going in the wrong direction entirely:

1. Complex Butterfly Stack Maneuver

First, armbar with forearm pointing up as you shuffle feet up in an awkward foot torque.

Next bring second hand up to stack hands in a butterfly stack on existing armbar to assist in hiking feet up as you pull out more.

Thirdly as your feet are too high to maintain the butterfly stack (and you  need to escape this stack anyways) transition to a lieback as you walk your feet up the side of the crack.

Lastly roll/slide your higher arm from liebacking back to a forearm-up arm-bar and repeat process.

This technique caused a lot of chafing on my arms and really worked my abdominals. It felt unnecessarily awkward but then again maybe that's just because I'm figuring out this width?

2. Armbar Torso Torque
This one felt a bit more elegant and was almost easier to rest in.

Basically try to stay on your feet as much as possible throughout. When crack is too wide to jam and too narrow to stem, just point your toes in & down until you are jamming off the heel-to-foot-pit/shin-line (OWiee). You can pretty easily shuffle the feet up in this position and it seems to fit in any width that is too narrow to fit your thigh into.

Next, stick your higher arm into the crack in a forearm-up armbar (I can't remember if I pressed my hand on the near or far side of the crack here). The crack is too narrow to get enough leverage in the arm-bar to hold yourself but that is where the next move comes into play.

Stick your lower arm into the crack. Bury it in up to your shoulder, or even up to your neck. Curl the arm up like doing a bicep curl as you attempt a palm-up fist jam (I find these to be slightly larger/more secure than a palm-down fist jam).

I think that somehow while attempting to hold the high arm as an armbar while reaching deep in with my lower arm I am actually locking off my torso into the crack by torquing both arms into the crack. I can then slide my feet up and then as I stand up on my feet I just glide my arms up.

This maneuver seems more secure overall as I am doing far fewer transitions and it also seemed to be easier on my abdominals as by burying both arms so deeply into the crack, my center of gravity was pulled much closer to the crack.

[RussWalling]

Yikes....  Have you tried stacking it and using calf locks?  That is a sick size for sure.

[Jaybro]

Wide Pony, butterfly stacks lead with your right foot...

[Jaybro]

Mike Friedrichs doing same;


Fosberg did the first or second redpoint of that thing, Those fucking Britts onsighted  it, I have yet to climb it clean, though I'm much fitter now  than when I tried it two years ago

[WideZac]

you on the lead crack or the one just opposite?  there is one TR route that goes from fists to tight OW and slightly overhangs.  probably 5.11.

for that one, I fist about as far as I can.  Then since it still isn't too steep there, I just jam an elbow and keep moving the feet.

after that, I switch to butterflies and a classic high foot/low foot.  Works well.  you can lean off to the left (right foot in) and get some decent rests/pretend to place gear if you need too.

if you are talking about the lead OW, I am too stubborn to actually invert on that one.  I basically play the high foot low foot as far as it will go.  Right leg in deep and left leg pushing your body to the left.  (the crack leans slightly to the left)  then I just butterfly the way up.  I've gotten through every section and should get that thing this winter.  I got close last time and the core feels pretty soft.  Not much has changed since then though...

[scuffy b]

I'd like to know the actual dimensions of both these cracks.
The lead crack (not the subject of the original post) looks like maybe 3.5-4 inches to me, too small for Mike's knee.
How steep is it? Is the width uniform bottom to top? How high?
I'm assuming that the other crack, subject of the original post, changes enough that it is small enough to fist jam low down,
independent of a climber's dimensions, and big enough for knees and such higher up, with the same kind of transition for
everyone, height of the transition varying with climber.
How steep and how high?

[WideZac]

The lead crack is probably tight new #5 Camalots.  I can get a knee in for about a move at the start and then there is now way it will go in.  I found this shot online.  The lead OW is on the right side of the 'pillar' with 2 cracks on it (and draws) on the left of the shot.



Probably 30 degrees overhanging at it's steepest.  (?) Hard for me to really say.  I'll try to get a profile shot of it next time I go.  Width is fairly uniform, but it does slowly taper near the end of the bulge.  For me, the crux is getting through the baggy fist into the good fist and then once you hit big hands, you feel great.

Other crack probably starts at mid range 3 camalots then goes to new 4's.  With huge hands, you could probably get some fists most of the way.  Never get's big enough for knees.  This one is just over vertical from bottom to top, but makes a bit of a crescent shape.  starts of just under vertical and arcs its way steeper and steeper.

both are about 40'.  Maybe a bit more than 40'.

[Jaybro]

Seemed more like 50'+ but I've been wrong before. I thought he meant the lead one cause the tr one is trivial. A couple off fist moves  near the top is all slide a fist over a side pressure kinda deal. 5.10(flat) climbed it in gandas.

The lead one is cool, extremely overhung at the start. Either here or on the taco I have a photo looking out of mike on it that shows this. When I get back to my 'puter I'll find it if no one posts it first. No way that will ever be done inversion free without gumball machine sized fists! -there's a challenge for ya, Scuffy!

[WideZac]

matched my highpoint on it again this weekend.  Staring at the 7th draw and feeling pretty gassed.  Inversion free.  about 1.5-2' from a good fist and then just big hands.  Soon.

[Mike Friedrichs]

Did my annual attempt yesterday. Feeling pretty worked. My knee does not fit so I don't understand how anyone could do it without inverting. Thing's damned hard! The crux is high too. It was clearly more difficult for Pete and Tom than Trench Warfare was.

Maybe I'll try it twice this year...

[scuffy b]

Thanks for the additional info, Jay.
Off fist, having an idea of our relative hand sizes, is more meaningful to me than
the Camalot sizes, but,
THANKS for the Good Intentions, WideZac.
About the footwear, Jaybro, this could be one of those cracks which would be harder in regular climbing shoes than in Gandas.
Good luck, WideZac and Mike, on the steep lead crack.
I can do some things without getting a knee and without inverting, which some people think are unclimbable without inverts, e.g. BAM
and Stack Effect (that new thing), which is good because I can't do any moves at all if I somehow invert (super hard in itself for me).

[Jaybro]

Never know till ya try scuff...

Hey mike, about that second try....

[scuffy b]

You've seen me try inversion moves, Jaybro. Had to get rescued every time.

[Jaybro]

Three times is not enough to make that conclusion, and you know it!

[WideZac]

. No way that will ever be done inversion free without gumball machine sized fists! -there's a challenge for ya, Scuffy!

got it last night.  still too stubborn to invert.  Now I can start to work on it upside down!

[scuffy b]

Great going. That thing has a serious reputation (among a tiny group of climbers).
Nice feeling to do something that is assuredly impossible, too.

[Jaybro]

Nice zac! But that's gotta be doing it the hard way!

[Pellucid Wombat]

I'm talking about the TR one shown here. This climber is just barely reaching the awkward size and it looks like he might be starting to do what I described in method 1. Jaybro calls it trivial, and for me it would be if it weren't overhanging at the wide hands, or if the hands were just a little bit thinner since they become too wide for my fists at the top. It is still in that size range for me that is wide enough to be OW but too narrow and steep for the techniques I've worked out so far.

It starts as fists for me (maybe a little large for a #3 Camalot) and gradually expands to a new #4 Camalot size for the final few body lengths just as it starts to overhang slightly. It almost seems like the last body length or so of Moby Dick, Center, except on that climb the crack is low angle enough that I could just pump my feet and slide an arm up in the crack to keep from tipping out. I climbed Generator twice the other weekend, and thinking more about it, this crack is still a little narrower than the lower crux of Generator, since on that one I can shove a knee in and hand stack away.

Since this one overhangs I have to rely on my arms a lot more, but I don't quite see a good way to maintain stacks since it is too narrow for me to get my leg in to reset the stacks (my method 1 uses stacks, but I have to do a lot of switching around to move the stack up). My calves are large so they stick first before I can get in up to my knee, but I can't find a way to make anything of this in such a parallel sided crack. Maybe I'm just not fully understanding the calf locks technique?

Both techniques seem to work on the two times I tried the crack, but I had to hang a bit on each round as I got gassed and couldn't rest. I might just need to work on my OW fitness, but I'm also wondering if one of these techniques (or any others) are more efficient for effort or better for being able to rest.

Sweet work on the lead crack! I'd love to see a video of that!  

[WideZac]

If you are in SLC, drop me a line and we can check that thing out together.  I can't quite keep fists in the whole thing.  The hands are easy if you stack, it just comes down to footwork (again!)

[Pellucid Wombat]

I'm in Oakland but I visit family in SLC a few times a year. Maybe you'd want to meet up there over Christmas weekend? I'll be in town next Friday through Monday.

[Jaybro]

what about during OR?

[Pellucid Wombat]

I'm just doing a short visit over Christmas so I won't be around during the winter OR.

I might come through again in April-May-ish for another Indian Creek + Desert Tower combo.

I might also come through in August to begin a long trip to the Cirque of Towers & the Tetons, so I might time that with the summer OR if some of you guys are meeting up in the UT/WY area then 

[WideZac]

drop me a line this weekend.  I have family in town until this Friday and I am free after that.

 - zac

[WideZac]

we got out the other day.  played on some of the other cracks and then I decided to 'unsend' the lead crack.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDvk3iNhg38
(even after I looked up the how to on posting video, could not get it to work.  gave up.)


alas.  back to the garage for me...

[Jaybro]

NICE Zac!   Cool explosive fall, too, especially poignant witht eh people running underneath!

I'll be out there in just a few weeks with both those projects on the list!

[scuffy b]

Hey, that looks great.

[pjw]

if in doubt, get the invert out 

[Jaybro]

You can hang way longer on your legs (passive) than on your arms (active )!!

[Pellucid Wombat]

Zac, thank you for teaching me better 'footwork' for offwidths. Not only did I do that easy OW at Momemtum clean 3 times in different ways that weekend, but those tips helped me climb Generator Crack clean last weekend!

BTW, just thinking about pro placement strategies here, but if you were leading this crack outside I imagine you'd be resetting a cam above you before setting your butterfly stacks, and occasionally leaving a piece of gear between your right leg and left leg as backup since you could step past the 'leaver' piece with your left leg?

I tried inserting the video as a "Flash" video but that doesn't seem to work with the YouTube embed code. Do the site creators have any suggestions on how to embed videos?

[RussWalling]

I tried inserting the video as a "Flash" video but that doesn't seem to work with the YouTube embed code. Do the site creators have any suggestions on how to embed videos?

YouTube changed something and the old embed trick does not work anymore..... I have looked at installing a new mod that will bring us up to an easy insert button, buy have yet to do it.  Probably way easy, but have not tried it yet.